Curse

TopGun · Feb 21, 2006, 04:51 PM // 16:51

The Ritualist has a very powerful primary attribute, increasing the health of all her summoned creatures. Thus, a minion master ritualist could feasibly be very powerful in PVE, but will mana become a problem? I have Soul Reaping 10 pts on my current Minion Master necromancer, and that permits me to run an astonishing number of minions at a time with Vereta's and Blood of the Master. Does anyone here think it would be possible to run similar minion-heavy builds with a ritualist primary? Will the mana sacrifice balance out with the increased minion power?

Guardian of the Light · Feb 21, 2006, 05:03 PM // 17:03

I have tried a Ri/N and they are quite fun. Use Boon of Creation to get a bit of energy back and use animate Bone Horror. The Ri/N is more ideal for Random Arenas where is less corpses so you can make more durable minions.

Vermilion Okeanos · Feb 21, 2006, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quite pointless outside of PvE (PvP you need the high level summon's dmg, or minion for death nova which wouldnt need more hp).

Ritualist's energy management are generally quite good, so I don't think too many problems would come out. Those minions will only serve as better tank/distraction to the mobs' AI.

Glasswalker · Feb 21, 2006, 06:03 PM // 18:03

I thought it would be kind of fun to amass a horde of minions, Use Signet of Creation on them, Death Nova as many as possible and send them at the enemy. SoC serves two purposes, to help make sure they actually get to the enemy, even through traps, and to have a set deadline to guarantee that DN goes off. High Spawning Power would help them survive for their death charge as well.

To pull this off, you would need at least 2 Necros to place all the DN, and some way to divide the task. I would make the second Necro a N/W, so he can bring Charge! With only 30 seconds to lay all those down, and hit the enemy, you'll be short on time.

The beauty of this is that you can time a spike to coincide with the 30 second deadline, knowing that massive damage will hit exactly then. Pure theorycraft, but it sounds like fun.

Guardian of the Light · Feb 21, 2006, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glasswalker

I thought it would be kind of fun to amass a horde of minions, Use Signet of Creation on them, Death Nova as many as possible and send them at the enemy. SoC serves two purposes, to help make sure they actually get to the enemy, even through traps, and to have a set deadline to guarantee that DN goes off. High Spawning Power would help them survive for their death charge as well.

To pull this off, you would need at least 2 Necros to place all the DN, and some way to divide the task. I would make the second Necro a N/W, so he can bring Charge! With only 30 seconds to lay all those down, and hit the enemy, you'll be short on time.

The beauty of this is that you can time a spike to coincide with the 30 second deadline, knowing that massive damage will hit exactly then. Pure theorycraft, but it sounds like fun.

Ya minion bomb

Ememy team "GET THE MINION FACTION"
Ri/N 1: I'm using Sig of Creatition
30.....
20....
10
9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
KABOOOM!!!!!!
"Your team was victorous"

Vilaptca · Feb 21, 2006, 11:48 PM // 23:48

I don't think minions are considered summons. Anyway, Soul Reaping is too good for a Minion Master, so I think if anything they would go N/Ri instead of Ri/N.

Mandy Memory · Feb 22, 2006, 12:09 AM // 00:09

N/Ri wouldnt get summoning, therefore making N/mo better.

Summoning wouldnt be as good though, even with say 16 spawning...thats only 64% more health...which wouldnt make up for the levels/damage you would lose from losing 4 death magic...not to mention you cant sacrifice, botm, or heal area as well

Vilaptca · Feb 22, 2006, 12:47 AM // 00:47

I just meant that minions are called like animated. Not summons. So Summoning probably wouldn't help them anyways, thus no reason in the first place to go Ri.

I agree with you though, N/Mo would probably still be better. 16 death and points in SR and Healing would be better than anything a Ri/N could do.

Glasswalker · Feb 22, 2006, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Based upon what they said in the magazine, minions are considered summoned creatures (So are pets for some reason). The extra 64% health will be situational. In the build above, it will be of significant use when combined with the benifit from the summoning skill.

As pointed out by GotL, T minus 30 seconds to victory...
...5 seconds to Spirit Rift...
...2 seconds Lightning Orb...
...1 second Vampiric Gaze...
DEAD! GG

Which is to say, the only thing that Ri actually adds is determination. Your minions WILL survive for 30 seconds. They WILL die in 30 seconds. Plan for it. That can be very powerful if your team is prepared.

Note: The build above uses only 3 skills, and assumes a second with unconditional res (/Mo) and a third with either N/W or W/N. The rest is up to you. A W/N with Death Nova and Plague Signet who rushes with the Minions would be VERY interesting. What you do with the rest is entirely up to you.

Vilaptca · Feb 22, 2006, 03:28 AM // 03:28

I have the magazine, it says nothing about minions. Only Ranger pets. It doesn't even hint at minions.

It says Ritualist's spirits and other creatures, such as Ranger pets.

BannyD · Feb 22, 2006, 05:32 AM // 05:32

ive tested this in the preview weekend and minions from the necro do indeed get the ritualist bonus.

normally with a necro primary your taste of death kills any minion instantly as the lvl of each is the same (both death magic)

i had a ritualist with taste of death and was assuming that it would kill my minion to set off death nova but instead only put him at minimal health, meaning that he indeed got a boost in life from the Rt primary.

also i was using bone minions. the boon of creation bonus is applied twice for this spell and gave twice the bomb power

Vermilion Okeanos · Feb 22, 2006, 05:41 AM // 05:41

taste of death has a set among of hp it steal per level, so it doesn't always kill the minion instantly.

BannyD · Feb 22, 2006, 05:58 AM // 05:58

Quote:

taste of death has a set among of hp it steal per level, so it doesn't always kill the minion instantly.

the amount taste of death steals, in my experience, is completely proportional to the amount of life a minion has at X amount of death magic. i know taste doesnt kill a minion instantly if they were just spawned...they didnt have any time to degen life...but then they are left at a very miniscule amount.

when i tested this with Rt primary..even after using taste of death on a reasonably degened minion...they were still left at around 1/8 health or so. so it was safe to assume for me that these count as summons.

Grimm · Feb 22, 2006, 09:55 AM // 09:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vilaptca

I have the magazine, it says nothing about minions. Only Ranger pets. It doesn't even hint at minions.

It says Ritualist's spirits and other creatures, such as Ranger pets.

It also calls the whole continent on which Chapter 1 takes place "Ascalon", so I wouldn't take anything in the article as 100% accurate.

I think they meant minions. From what I remember during PvP preview weekend when you mouseover Spawning Power it says summoned or animated.

Grimm · Feb 22, 2006, 10:09 AM // 10:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by BannyD

the amount taste of death steals, in my experience, is completely proportional to the amount of life a minion has at X amount of death magic. i know taste doesnt kill a minion instantly if they were just spawned...they didnt have any time to degen life...but then they are left at a very miniscule amount.

when i tested this with Rt primary..even after using taste of death on a reasonably degened minion...they were still left at around 1/8 health or so. so it was safe to assume for me that these count as summons.

How about we settle things with some real live 8th grade level arithmetic?

16 Death Magic:
Horrors and fiends have 440 health. Minions have 340 health each. Taste of Death steals up to 420. It will kill minions but not fiends or horrors.

16 Spawning Power:
16 X 4 = 64, thus 64 percent more life than normal
12 Death Magic:
Horrors and fiends have 360 health. Minions have 280.
360 X 1.64 = 590.4 (horrors, fiends)
280 X 1.64 = 459.2 (minions)

TopGun · Feb 24, 2006, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grimm

How about we settle things with some real live 8th grade level arithmetic?

16 Death Magic:
Horrors and fiends have 440 health. Minions have 340 health each. Taste of Death steals up to 420. It will kill minions but not fiends or horrors.

16 Spawning Power:
16 X 4 = 64, thus 64 percent more life than normal
12 Death Magic:
Horrors and fiends have 360 health. Minions have 280.
360 X 1.64 = 590.4 (horrors, fiends)
280 X 1.64 = 459.2 (minions)

This is an awesome post.

So, basically, having 16 spawning power is in fact beneficial to undead health, granting you about 150 more hp. If we've concluded that mana isn't really a significant factor in raising the dead, as a Ritualist has significant management of energy. But does anyone know anything about the damage the risen dead do at 12 Death Magick vs 16 Magick? If the damage isn't significant, there could be a definite advantage to Ritualist minioning. Plus, Ritualists may end up more useful in PvP due to their other forms of magick, but that's another discussion...

LifeInfusion · Feb 24, 2006, 04:01 PM // 16:01

It's scary that Ritualists might be more viable Minion Masters, but I have come to disprove your theory.

THE ARGUMENT
Ritualists' primary attribute regards stuff you "create (or animate) and gives them 4% extra health per rank in Spawning power attribute.

REGARDING ATTRIBUTES
HOWEVER, you must remember that you go full 12 attribute in spawning power, a spawnign power headgear, plus a spawning power superior rune just to achieve the 16 spawning power. That basically means if you go 16 spawning power and 12 death you have only 3 attribute levels left, which isn't all too useful.

Also, it is not just HP that is gained per rank in Death Magic but armor AND attack power as well.

REGARDING SKILLS
Plus, you have to think of how you will keep the minions alive. Blood of the master at 12 Death Magic is only 99 Health healed but at 16 Death it is 122 health healed.

Signet of Creation gives 1-7 regen of animated creatures. Verata's Sacrifice gives 10 health regen for 17 seconds at 12 Death and 21 seconds at 16 Death.

Taste of Death Steals only 340 at 12 Death but 420 at 16 Death.

105 damage from Death Nova at 16 Death instead of 85 from 12 Death.

Is Boon of Creation's 9 energy at 16 Spawning Power whenever you create a creature as good as soul reaping which triggers every time soemthing dies? Surely, spawning power actually has skills, but the usefullness of soul reaping in places where there are MANY monsters overshadows the 9 energy gain from boon of creation. But that is another discussion.

CONCLUSION
Judging by all the minion related skills, spawning power might be good for just making things that last longer in terms of armor ignoring attacks and degen, but they do not necessarily deal more damage or can take more damage (from armor-calculated attacks).

Glasswalker · Feb 24, 2006, 04:53 PM // 16:53

What does the average MM have in Soul Reaping? 5+1 or so? So we have:

6 energy everytime something dies (which you would concievably spend on raising minions -- and I use this term generically to mean any of the 3 -- at 15 or 25 a pop)
vs.
9 every time you create.

Now, a primary Necromancer would get energy when a minion dies as well, but the purpose of a MM is to have as many as possible. If a minion is dying, it better be because you want him to. I am certainly not saying they should all go Ritualist primary, but for certain builds, such as the minion-bomb rush described above, it could be useful.

And to correct a post I made above, the W/N couldn't possibly have Charge! and Plague Signet.

Make that Plague Sending... Although at the moment, I can't think of why I would have wanted it in there...

CKaz · Feb 24, 2006, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Depends on your goals.
I'd much rather have level 18 fiends and horrors dishing out damage, than lvl 14s trying to do the same thing. Especially as the targets you're usually trying to beat on are levels 20-30.

Also a MM's soul-reap is likely at 7 if he also took BM for OoB - otherwise it's that much more (9 if I took 10+1 BM). Oooh, so you're a ritualist and you don't have OoB/the points for BM... ahh... sorry...
I'm also doing a DD with my DM (better zap) and a Vampric Gaze which the ritualist won't have. My Veratas Sac and BotM as mentioned, do better as well.

Talking about energy gains becomes moot there. My MM has SR 7 and regular shots of OoB vs create at 9. Or again SR9 with BM @11 and still a very good OoB and Vampric Gaze.

Now if you want to push out #s/carnage/bombs, do minions right, might you not get x2 your creation bonus each time? If you're not worried about their level just their hardiness, sure the levels tank once again (down to level 10 now? yikes) but they end up at x1.64hp. I think the setup spamb bomb flurry might in fact go better with a Ri/N.

But normally as a MM you're looking to sustain and keep going and keep dishing out quality damage... some interesting Ri/N ideas but I can't see it where they will be generally better @MM - I still have a whole line of useful stuff to play with as a Nec either in Blood, Curse or secondary (where I'm normally mixing in BM).

Nevin · Feb 24, 2006, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Keep in mind the damage the minions/horros/fiends will deal... With out 16 Death Magic they're too weak. (This is for MMing, not bombing)